How I F*ck in a Swinger Relationship

NATALIE RIVERA: Brian had zero expectations. He was going through a bit of a life change at the moment and was looking for new experiences. He was meeting this woman on a whim. Her ad was listed on Craigslist’s “casual encounters” space and it detailed that she was looking for a dominant partner that would be interested in having an ongoing play relationship. 

BRIAN: Something about it spoke to me, I had to respond to it. And I did.

NR: This is How I F*ck and I’m your host Natalie Rivera. An estimated 4 to 5% of couples in the U.S. are non-monogamous. Some of these couples might identify as poly, meaning they have meaningful, loving relationships with more than one partner, or they might consider themselves as ethical non-monogamous, which means they have sexual and/or romantic experiences with people outside of their relationship, not necessarily involving love. There are also the couples that are old school, who use the term “swingers,” meaning they enjoy sexual experiences with other individuals who are married like them. All of these definitions are considered part of “the lifestyle,” something the co-hosts of the podcast “Front Porch Swingers,” know a lot about and want to embrace on their show.

BRENNA: I'm Brenna. I am the co-host of the front porch. swingers podcast. I'm a 30-year-old pansexual, nonmonogamous woman.

BRIAN: I'm Brian, I am the other co-host of the front porch swingers and sex on your terms podcast, also pansexual and open and in a loving, committed, ethically nonmonogamous relationship with my partner.

NR: So, Brian and Brenna, why the name Front Porch Swingers?

BRENNA: So I think we originally chose the name front porch swingers, because it was, first of all, we're from Montana. So it's, you know, the country. And the idea of sitting on the front porch kind of spoke to us it says a lot about who we are. But the other part of it was we chose front porch and on the back porch, because we wanted the, the whole concept of our show, is we want people to feel comfortable coming out as whoever they happen to be, whether they are swingers whether they are somehow otherwise nonmonogamous, whether they are of different sexuality than heterosexual, we want people to feel comfortable expressing themselves and so we put ourselves on the front porch. We put ourselves out there for people to see who we are we express obviously, all of our sexual experiences and the journeys that we've gone on because we want to inspire people to do the same thing in whatever way they feel comfortable doing it, whether it's just coming out to one friend, whether it's being honest with their entire families about who they are, whatever it may be just being comfortable to express your sexuality in a way that fulfills you.

BRIAN: Yeah, absolutely.

NR: Brenna and Brian are quite the dynamic duo. You can tell there’s a lot of love between them. While they have separate sexual experiences with other people, it’s hard to imagine Brenna and Brian not being together at all. Yet, of course, there was a time where they weren’t together, where they hadn’t even met. Where they lived different lives than what they have now. 

BRENNA: I actually grew up with a pretty heavy Mormon influence. And so that was really interesting kind of navigating that, especially as I became a preteen, and then into my teenage years, being surrounded by people who were very sex-negative, not even sex-neutral, but sex-negative, was really interesting, especially now looking back on it, very little sex education. And my parents are wonderful people. They're actually a lot of fun. But they are major avoiders of anything serious, and that included sex. 

BRIAN: My life was very different growing up. I come from an interesting household, my mother, Roman Catholic, my father, a devout atheist. So I didn't while I was raised, like a, you know, the normal Catholic boy, in terms of going through confirmation and communion and all those things, I would also have my father's influence, which was obviously just the opposite of anything having to do with church or religion or any of those things. On top of which I come from a very sex-positive household, my father operated bars and restaurants that included gentlemen's clubs from before I was born, I grew up in the world of adult entertainment as a boy and working around adults in the sex worker industry. So the conversations about sex and sexuality in my home, or fluid, very open. My I have a lot of cousins, and family members who identify as gay, and when they would come as when I was a young boy, even, it was always to my parents, even before their own parents, because my family was far more understanding and ingratiating when it came to sexuality. 

NR: While Brian grew up around conversations about sexuality, Brenna introduction to sex had to be online. When she was around 13 she started getting on AOL chat rooms. She’d chat with people, pretending to be older than she actually was. The conversations with strangers were kind of her first introduction to anything sexual. That and...

BRENNA: I had a friend in junior high who used to tie me up in our basement, and it was not anything necessarily sexual in nature. It was more so I'm fully convinced I haven't kept in touch with him that he is probably some shibari roadmaster somewhere, tying people up and having an amazing time doing so that was probably my first real experience with someone else that now as an adult looking back on it, I should have seen maybe some sexual undertones or overtones to. 

NR: Both Brian and Brenna grew up in families that included loving, hetero monogamous relationships. Sure, Brenna’s mom was married to her stepdad, and Brians’ mother was actually his father’s second wife, so they knew there was such a thing as a divorce, but they still grew up with these examples of two people being married, and no one else. I mean it was and still is everywhere, right? Monogamy is sort of the default and sort of the expectation. Marriages are traditionally expected to look a certain way. But that’s not enough for some people, including Brenna.

BRENNA: I was married prior to being with Brian and I don't think that relationship could have been any more vanilla. That's the best way that I can think of to describe it. It was incredible. It was very sexually sparse. 

NR: Brenna’s marriage was also very monogamous. Her husband was the first person she ever had sex with. She didn’t sleep with anyone else in their marriage, he was her first and only. Actually, the only experimenting they did outside of their marriage was when Brenna hooked up with a co-worker in her mid-20s. 

BRENNA: So my sexuality, my sexual identification has changed several times over the course of my life, I don't necessarily know that I was attracted. I didn't know that I was attracted to women until fairly late into my life, probably my mid-20s. So only within the last five or six years, maybe I at one point was working with somebody, I was doing some kind of bartending on the side, making some extra money to pay off student loan debt, and started working with this beautiful blonde bartender and she and I had a couple of cocktails one night, and it was just one thing led to another. And I think that I had probably always found myself attracted to women before that, but I'd always blown it off as well. You know, women are just beautiful. That's just what they are. And there, it doesn't have to be a sexual thing. I can just appreciate the aesthetics of them. And it wasn't until that experience with the beautiful blonde bartender when I realized, oh, okay, no, I'm actually sexually attracted to women, I want to engage sexually with them as well.

NR: As beautiful and eye-opening this experience was for her, it was the first and only one she had in this marriage. 

BRENNA: So my partner, my ex-husband, fully supported that decision for us to engage and to make out and have this amazing evening together. But that was kind of where it stopped. There was no other discussion of nonmonogamy and I think that was due in large part to the fact that neither of us knew that that was even an option, right? We always knew monogamy as the default setting in a relationship and For sure, go have fun with the sexy bartender for an evening. But then you're coming back to our relationship where we're a monogamous couple. And we do what is expected of us as a married couple.

NR: Brian was married four times before he met Brenna. Unlike Brenna’s marriages though, Brian would have non-monogamous experiences in some of his marriages. Sometimes it would be his wife bringing another woman home, or it would be threesomes. 

BRIAN: So there was, it wasn't that I wasn't kind of part of the world of ethical nonmonogamy or kink and, you know, to speak of BDSM and those types of things, but certainly not to the level we are now. And it almost seems now, like when I was involved in those activities, and married to two other folks, it was almost out of necessity, like to keep the spark going in to keep the interest, something else had to be taking place because I was so disenchanted with the relationship I was in. In fact, I remember one of my ex-wives saying to me, that I was indifferent that, you know, if I didn't, if she didn't come home, that it would take me seven seconds to fall asleep instead of six. And she was right, I really wasn't fulfilled in that relationship. 

NR: Aside, from nonmonogamous experiences, Brian would also toy with kink and BDSM to keep some of these marriages alive. This still didn’t keep him satisfied in his marriages though. Brenna on the other hand felt she couldn’t explore her kinky side in the first marriage she was in. 

BRENNA: I really started desiring a lot of BDSM activities, I found myself researching like crazy and listening to podcasts, and reading about BDSM. And I was having all of these, you know, thoughts in the back of my mind about how sexy it would be to be tied up or to be spanked or all of these activities that are now a huge part of our sexuality. And I had a partner who was not open to those things, it just was not, not only was it not his interest, he had zero interest in it. But in addition to that, I don't think that he was at a place in his life where he could really wrap his head around doing that with his wife. And I think the, you know, the reason for that could be one of many different things, but I think he kind of put me on a sexual pedestal, he expected me to be a certain way sexually. And the idea of, you know, handcuffing me and flogging me was just not in his, in his wheelhouse in his mental ability at that point. So it was something I stuffed down for a long time. 

NR: Brenna’s marriage ended after five years. It was immediately after her divorce that she started to explore BDSM and kink. Like, immediately after. 

BRENNA: So I started going to munches in my local area. And I started meeting people in the BDSM community fairly quickly into doing that I met a couple that they've still to this day are probably the most interesting people I've ever met in my entire life. They at one point owned a dungeon. They were part owners in a dungeon on the east coast. And they had spent their entire lives I think, when I met them, they were probably in their mid-50s, they had spent 30 plus years training with other BDSM masters in the United States and in Europe, and they had just had this incredible library of experiences in the BDSM world. And they kind of took me under their wing in a lot of ways they mentored me, they helped me to understand a lot of my own BDSM desires, they gave me a lot of like safety protocols that I never in a million years would have thought of. So in a lot of ways, they kind of helped me to frame who I am now in terms of my kinky life, my kink interests.

NR: While Brenna was happily soaking everything BDSM and kink like a sponge, she still would allow herself to be set up with vanilla guys. 

BRENNA: My friends would always, you know, call me and tell me that they wanted me to meet their friend for coffee. And I'd go and meet him. And he's, you know, he'd always be a nice guy, good, attractive guy with a good job, and intelligent and eloquent and thoughtful and all the things that my friends thought that I thought that I should have or thought that I should want and a guy and within, you know, a couple of weeks of seeing them, I would be bored to tears, I would be once again back in the same spot of, I need something more than this. And I have all of these desires that are just bubbling at the surface, and this person is not going to be able to fulfill them. So I would find myself dating these guys for a very small amount of time and then moving on to the next and repeating that pattern over and over again, not understanding that I needed to stop it. 

NR: One night, while Brenna was intoxicated, she had an honest conversation with one of these friends who would set her up on these dates. They talked about what was really behind her ghosting these men. Why weren’t these guys enough of her? What was it that she wanted? This conversation inspired her to grab another drink and get online. 

BRENNA: It was that night over a bottle of wine that I decided to put up a Craigslist casual encounters ad space. Typically looking for a dominant person to have an ongoing play relationship with. 

NR: Brain read Brenna’s post about five days since moving permanently to Montana. At that time, he had quit a company he worked at for years and turned down a position in New York. Brian, who is from New Jersey,  just couldn’t bring himself to go back to the North East. He needed something different, so he decided on Montana where he found a new job and Brenna’s post. 

BRIAN: Much like Brenda said I was just done with the status quo. I was done with unfulfilling relationships or unfulfilled relationships, I was done doing the same thing that I was doing over and over and over and expecting a different result, I had to change something. So I decided that when I got to Montana, I was just going to be who I was and didn't care what anybody thought I wasn't going to try to be something I wasn't I was just over it.

NR: Brenna received around 100 responses to that post. She reached out to only two of those responders, Brian one of them. 

BRENNA: Most of the responses I got, of course, you can tell immediately they have no idea what they're talking about. Brian obviously had some experience and some knowledge based on what he said. And I think the ad asked for some specifics on the experience level on an understanding of the world of BDSM. I also think I made it pretty clear, though, that I was not looking for a relationship necessarily, right. I wasn't looking for my soulmate by putting this ad on Craigslist, of course, I found it. But that was not the expectation. It was not at all what I thought was going to happen. I wanted and I put in the ad saying as much I wanted somebody who would go on the kind of an ongoing journey with me, but it would be very casual in nature. So if we wanted to continue to date other people we could, but it would be ongoing it wasn't going to be a one-night stand either.

NR: They chatted for about a week after connecting on Craigslist. The first time they met they talked over some coffee. Coffee turned into a drink. Then dinner. Then a drink somewhere else. And then tea. 

BRIAN: you gotta remember it's, it's you know December in Montana and it's really cold. So we walked back to the house I was renting about two blocks away from where we were three blocks away and made tea for us. And of course, tea turned into super hot BDSM-like sex very quickly, very aggressive, very passionate, very intense. And that from that point on it never stopped

NR: And so what about the What about the sex and the sex after you know, made it so hot? You know, any, any specifics you can share. 

BRENNA: So what's really interesting is, we started out really wanting what we refer to as a high protocol relationship. So the idea of, for example, Brian, providing me with tasks to complete throughout the day, providing him picture evidence or video evidence of what I was doing, that I was actually fulfilling the task, and then getting a reward or punishment at the end of the day, that was really where we started our relationship. Or at least the communication about our relationship, I should say, because it became pretty evident when we started having sex with each other, that that wasn't who we were especially not with each other. It's not who we are individually, either. At this point, we understand that about ourselves. But what we found was that we had this incredible primal nature about us about our sexuality with each other. Brian is very much a primal predator, I am very much primal prey, and we love playing off of those roles. And so you know, in the beginning, it was a lot of hair, pulling, and scratching and biting and kind of losing yourselves in these very animalistic movements, that has become the majority of our sex life. 

BRIAN: We are primal in nature, we are high impact, a lot of impact play, breast and nipple torture, it's, you know, very much as a top-bottom type situation with us. And as Brenda said,, it didn't necessarily start out that way. But it's certainly turned into that and continues to be that that is the largest majority of our, our, our play sessions together, very high impact very much primal. And it works for us, you know, we'll we will break out a Flogger or a cane or nipple clamps? Absolutely. And do we get involved in some electricity play 100%? But the majority of what we do is really primal. And it's just our love language, I think.

NR: Before Brenna and Brian got together when they were in the texting phase those five days or so before they met, they had both agreed that this arrangement was not going to be a relationship. But within a couple of months, it was apparent to both of them that they were falling in love and that they were great with each other. Still, they didn’t want this new relationship to be a repeat of their previous ones, so they had some conversations. Lots of them actually. 

BRENNA: We found ourselves, for example, having these very long drawn-out conversations, especially after we had just had, you know, a great sex session about something we'd always want to try. We'd always wanted to try if it hadn't up to that point, or something that had interested us, but we were scared to do it before or all of a sudden, we just started sharing those things constantly with each other. And it was actually during one of those conversations that I admitted to Brian that I would love to see his sex be sexual with another woman. And to my complete surprise, he was like, well, that's really interesting, because I would love to see you with another man. And it was just like, this light bulb went off for both of us, like, wow, this, we're compatible. And more than just the BDSM sense. There are some things we obviously have to talk about and figure out and really understand where our dynamic should be. But it made it pretty obvious that we both wanted something more than just the, you know, monogamous relationships that we had pretty much always been in. 

NR: Do you think people pull back from it or like, try to suppress all these desires they have, because they're just like, Oh my God, my partner would hate me. And then when they finally asked her, like, surprise that like, No, actually, I'm on the same, you know, it's like this whole communication thing, just like assumptions, assumptions being made.

BRIAN: 100% we have talked to a number of people that want one of the partners wants to get into the lifestyle but is definitely afraid to bring up the subject. Well, what what can happen, right, as you just mentioned, it's, it's to some degree, it's the point of no return. If you're in a Long term, you know, vanilla or a monogamous relationship with your partner, you've been married for a number of years, you know. And you decide one day that you turn to your partner and say, Hey, I really think we should open up the relationship, we should get into ethical non monogamy. If your partner is just horrified at the idea, it turns their nose up to a completely wants no part of it. It's difficult to come back from that. I mean, how do you say to your partner, hey, just kidding, you know, didn't really mean that let's let's forget all about that. That's not something you're going to soon forget. So we talk to people a lot that are in that situation. And at the same time, we speak to people that say the same, I was so scared, I was so scared, and I would kind of joke about it. And then we see something on TV or in a movie. And I'd mentioned it in passing. And then all of a sudden, my partner said, Yeah, let's try that. And boom, they have the best possible relationship that they could ever have had. We also know that it has worked the other way someone brings it up, and it destroys the relationship. The bottom line is for me, when Brenda and I had that conversation, I was fully confident in our relationship. Up until that point, we spoke about everything, we were open about everything. And I thought to myself, if ever I was going to have this conversation with a partner, this would be the time. This is the relationship that makes the most sense. 

NR: About a week or so after having these conversations about playing with other people, Brenna and Brian had their first hot wife experience, meaning Brenna having fun with another man with Brian close by. 

BRIAN: I started researching and started trying to find someone that I thought would fit the bill. And of course, we've talked about this many times, as couples often do getting into the world of ethical nonmonogamy or the swinger-centric space. You have a list of rules, right? You're always amending the rules as time goes on, which of course we have, and we had a list of them in the beginning. We also decided early on that if we were to play with single people that we weren't necessarily concerned about the relationship or friendship component because we didn't want to be friends with single people. We wanted to develop religion. ships and friendships with the couples. So since I was looking for a single man for her to play within his hot wife scenario, I was more focused on the physical. I wasn't concerned about whether or not this is someone we were going to hang out with and have drinks with and dinner with and see it, you know, Christmas parties, I was looking for physical attributes that I knew Brenda would find attractive. 

NR: Oh, Brenna found him attractive. Very attractive. As Brian puts it, he hit a home run in this search. Brian watched Brenna and this man has sex. He didn’t participate, he just watched. 

BRENNA: during the actual interaction, what was so hot and I wasn't necessarily expecting this because I think part of the intrigue of me having this hot wife experience was the idea that Brian was turned on by it, right, he wanted to see me with someone else. And I knew that that was going to be working for me, I was going to be kind of putting on a show for him so to speak. But what I didn't expect was to feel so sexually desired by someone that wasn't my partner. And how erotic that would be for me. It was the combination of Brian being so into this, and he's looking at me at one point, I'm looking him dead in the eye, as I'm engaging sexually with this other person. And I can feel the energy from both sides kind of combining in the center-right where I'm at. And it was the most explosive sexual experience of my entire life up to that date, potentially even still now, because it was the first time.

NR: In addition to hot wife experiences, Brenna and Brian have also hooked up with people without the other person being there. They’ve had play partners, they’ve hooked up with other couples, and at one Brenna was a keyholder for a man that wasn’t Brian. 

BRENNA: He was in chastity, he was locked and I held the key. Before being with Brian, first of all, I never would have had the confidence to do something like that, I think it takes an insane amount of confidence to know that you are literally responsible for somebody else's, you know, ability to get an erection. I mean, it's very, it's empowering. But it's also really scary. And that's something I never would have done before this not only because I didn't have an interest in it, but because I don't think mentally I was at that point before this. I know, we've also experienced a lot of things with partners that were new for them. 

NR: And it’s not just Brenna trying new things. Being in this space has allowed Brian to explore something he never really had a chance to address before his relationship with Brenna: His pansexuality. 

BRIAN: For me, I had a lot of sex with a lot of women over the course of my time, a lot of relationships. It's been a number of years now that I knew that I had the proclivity certainly, to be bisexual, and I knew I had an attraction to two other sexes other than the female. And it wasn't up until the time that Brendan I became a couple that was when we met, that I started to explore the bisexuality portion of my life. And only probably the last six months or so did I start to discover the pansexuality that I possess, I was actually dating a transgendered woman up until the time we left our home in Montana. And she kind of opened my my my mind up to the idea that I'm not just bisexual, I'm very likely pansexual

BRENNA: And for me, the lifestyle is full of bisexual or bi-curious or bi comfortable women. So I've had a lot of opportunities to explore sexually only I haven't dated a woman at this point. But I've had a lot of opportunities to explore within the swinging lifestyle with other women, mostly women who are married to a man that we are then engaging kind of the four of us together. And that has really opened my eyes to what I'm attracted to. I think just probably within the last year and a half or so is when I realized that I'm much more particular when it comes to my attraction to women versus men. So that's been really eye-opening for me. But yeah, that's been my experience so far with women of, I should say, women.

NR: Being consensually nonmonogamous not only allowed them to explore their attraction to same-sex, trans, and nonbinary people, but it also opened them both up to the possibility of being polyamorous. 

BRENNA: If you had asked us a year ago, if we ever thought we were going to be poly, we would have said, No way in hell, it's never going to happen because we were so into this idea of being with each other all the time and viewing that as kind of the most important thing in our relationship is always being with each other and experiencing things together. And, you know, obviously, since then, we still love spending time together. And our relationship is stronger than it's ever been. And I think that's actually why we've gotten to this point of understanding that we probably have a proclivity to be polyamorous in nature. Because what started happening is I started having regular play partners, people that I wasn't just having sex with, but I was also communicating with on a friendly level, you know, they'd asked how my day was going. We exchanged book suggestions with each other podcast suggestions, it became about so much more than just the sex and we started having conversations about, well, could we potentially also be romantic with other people not just friendly and sexual, but romantic and friendly and sexual. And it definitely took some time for us to wrap our heads around that's probably the biggest transition we've had to go through in terms of our nonmonogamous journey. But we are now at the point where we've decided that not only is it probably a very healthy thing for us to explore polyamory, but it's also something that we know will fulfill us on a different level. Because I think we've come to the reality that despite the fact that we consider ourselves soulmates, we can I consider Brian, my soulmate and my best friend in the entire world, I think it's unfair to expect one person to fulfill all of your needs. I think a lot of people go into a relationship expecting that that one person is going to fulfill them sexually and emotionally and mentally, and you're going to develop all the same hobbies, and you're going to spend all of this time together, and that person has to fill up your emotional bank every single day on all levels. That's not realistic, in my opinion. And so I think that when we started having those types of conversations and understanding that we can still be as strong as ever, and love being around each other, and yet still go out and find people that maybe have different interests than Brian does. 

NR: As you can probably tell by now, for some couples, being a part of the lifestyle doesn’t necessarily end with one conversation about hooking up with other people. Brian and Brenna’s relationship has opened them up to so many conversations about their sexual orientation about what they need to feel fulfilled, about whether they can see themselves being poly. While there is a lot of hot sex, for Brian and Brenna, being in the lifestyle means getting to know themselves better. 

BRENNA: A lot of people think of the 70s key parties where you're pulling the key out of the fishbowl and that's the person that you're hooking up with that night. Most swingers are not like that. And we certainly are not like that. We want to get to know people we respect and appreciate emotional and mental connections just as much as sexual. And if there's anything that I wish people would understand about swingers, it's that exact concept.

NR: Which is why that same year that they got into the lifestyle, Brian and Brenna decided to start a blog about their experiences and their thoughts on nonmonogamy. The blog was also a way to network with other people in the lifestyle. But some time later Brian realized that it wasn’t a blog they should be working on. They should be doing a podcast instead. Hence, Front Porch Swingers the podcast was born. 

BRENNA: I thought it was crazy. Because we had I never even touched a podcast microphone. At that point. I had no idea how to do any of it. But within probably two weeks of that discussion, we had a podcast up and going and it has been the most rewarding thing we have ever done. It's a lot of work. But it is it's so rewarding, mostly because we have people that are in similar situations to us at any given point in our journey. And, of course, because podcasts exist out there forever our podcast from two and a half years ago, people are listening to the beginning of our journey as newbie people looking to get into the lifestyle and they're going Oh, man, I'm experiencing a lot of what you guys were talking about. I know the nerves that you're going through because I'm experiencing them too. And so just connecting with people on that level has been so rewarding for us.

BRIAN: we really are trying to do our best to bring as much information to light in terms of consensual and ethical nonmonogamy and swinging and polyamory and kink. We really just want it to become as mainstream as possible. There are just so many people that are still shying away from it. 

NR: Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. Where can everyone find your podcast?

BRENNA: So our podcast can be found on any of the podcasting apps. So once again, it's called Front Porch Swingers. We also have a show called sex on your terms, which is a lot more about our personal sexuality and getting to where we're at with that in terms of polyamory and pansexuality and all of that. They can be found at frontporchswingers.com and sex on your terms calm well as all of our social media links can be found on those sites as well.

NR: Amazing. Well, thank you so much for speaking with me. I had so much fun.

BRENNA: Thank you. This was awesome.

BRIAN: Thanks, Natalie. We really appreciate it.

NATALIE: Thank you for listening to How I F*ck. If you like our podcast, give us a rating, leave us a review. Tell a friend. And please, subscribe if you haven’t already. Also, if you have a micropenis and would like to be interviewed for the show email us at hello@howifckpodcast.com or send us a dm on Instagram or Twitter. Our handles are at howickpodcast, that’s “How I F*ck,” without the “u” so “fck.” We also have a website, howifckpodcast.com, again without the “u.” There you can find all of our episodes as well as show notes, transcriptions, sources, and photos. How I F*ck is produced by me, Natalie Rivera. I’m also the host and creator. Ben Quiles is our audio engineer. Shyanne Lopez did copy and fact check. Original music by Miguel Gutierrez. You can find more of his music online under the artist name Magh. Gabriela Sanchez is our Social Media Manager and our Sponsorship Manager is Mouna Coulibaly. Special thanks to Front Porch Swingers for allowing us to use their episode soundbites in this podcast. Thank you and until next time.