How I F*ck with Two Vaginas

NATALIE RIVERA: Katie’s husband wanted to please his wife. I mean, why wouldn’t he? They were still newlyweds at this time and having some of the best sex of their lives. He started fingering her, putting one finger in and then another.

KATIE: And then he went and twisted his whole hand around. And let me tell you, I flinched. jumps a bit. I was it was very uncomfortable and really hurt. And he's like, there's something there. Like fingers runs. Like there was something between my fingers. And that's when I was like, there's What? I'm sorry. Excuse me, sir. There's a what? In my What?

NR: This is How I F*ck and I’m your host, Natalie Rivera. When I was 23 I experienced possibly one of the best pleasures of my life. The guy I was dating fingered me in a way that has been hard to replicate ever since we broke up. It was painful but in a good kind of way. Really good kind of way actually. Having someone pay attention to my vagina that way made me feel seen and in some weird way, appreciated? So when I heard Katie’s story about the first time she realized that something wasn’t right with her vagina, I couldn’t help but think to myself: “Oh, that fucking sucks.” She clearly didn’t experience that good kind of pain. 

KATIE: So my name's Katie. And I was born with a birth defect called uterus didelphys. It might actually be a separate uterus, my doctors can't decide. But um, yeah basically means that I was born with a uterus that did not fuse and separate properly. 

NR: Okay, so quick biology lesson for you: the female reproductive system is pretty symmetrical. It has two ovaries and two fallopian tubes all connected to one uterus, which is kind of like a fusion of both sides. Then there’s the cervix which is kind of like a door between the uterus and the vagina. So two fallopian tubes, two ovaries, one uterus, one cervix, one vagina. But things can go wrong sometimes when the uterus is developing: Maybe instead of one uterus, you’re born with two, along with two cervixes. Or maybe you're born with two uteruses but one cervix and one vagina. Then there are cases like Katie’s, where you’re born with two of everything.

KATIE: So I have two independent uteruses, each one has its own fallopian tube and ovary. The septum or the separation extends through the cervix. So I have two cervixes, and it'll extend all the way down the vaginal canal. So I also have two vaginas. 

NR: Uterus didelphys is a rare anomaly that affects 0.3% of the total population. Not only are the causes of uterus didelphys unknown, but it’s actually kind of difficult to identify in people who menstruate.

NR: For any of our listeners who might have trouble visualizing what your condition might look like, can you maybe try describing it. I don’t know if there’s a metaphor that maybe you like to refer to?

KATIE: it is like a nasal septum. It's like the middle of your nose, except that it's, it's back about a, maybe a half an inch to an inch internally. So it's not visible from the exterior, which is why of course I didn't know. And none of my former partners know when it took my husband three and a half years of dating to find it. Like we didn't, it took a long time for this to become an issue. Because it's a very thin vertical line of tissue. And if anything is inserted, it just shifts the side like it goes against the like the other wall just gets pushed aside. So it's not visible

NR: Katie is from Nova Scotia which is a Canadian Province, a place that I embarrassingly never even heard of until I met Katie. She was homeschooled throughout her elementary and middle school years, and while that can feel isolating for some kids, it didn’t for Katie. Though she did have to cope with some medical scares at a young age. When she was around 8 or 9 she went in for an abdominal ultrasound to see if she might have type 1 diabetes. She didn’t, but there was something else going on, something they didn’t catch. 

KATIE: they weren't looking at my uterus, obviously, they would have been looking at my kidneys and my pancreas and stuff. But it would have been visible on an ultrasound, probably at that age that there was like some kind of defect and they didn't notice it. So that's kind of frustrating, but I might have known earlier. But I didn't.

NR: While it wasn’t completely obvious to Katie that there was something different about her reproductive system, there were hints here and there that something wasn’t right, especially after she started menstruating. 

KATIE: I started getting it when I was 12. And my mum immediately made pant pads available. She had them around. I remember preferring to use them for the first little while. And then when I tried tampons, it was like one of the times probably when we were just gonna go swimming or something. I thought, Okay, well, I'll use a tampon no matter what I did. It was leaked. And I just figured you put in wrong, right? Maybe I didn't put it back far enough. Is it the wrong absorbency? I don't understand slightly, not by the multipacks. I try all the different things. And I couldn't figure out why on earth no matter what I did, like, always lead through it. Even just inserting tampons was just like, something feels 

like it's tugging and I don't like it. 

NR: Excessive menstrual bleeding can be a symptom of uterus didelphys, as well as excruciating cramping during periods which Katie unfortunately, knows a lot about.

KATIE: I used to miss school once a month. And I would be like I would collapse. I try to walk around my parents’ house. I tried to go get like Tylenol or something and I'd collapse on the floor and I couldn't move and I'd be screaming and screaming and my poor dad is like, what are we supposed to do? Yeah, but take her to the hospital. She can't walk. Suddenly, they just let me like, cry myself to sleep until I fell asleep a Tylenol me. So teenage periods were terrible. 

NR: When Katie was 14, her parents took her out of homeschooling and enrolled her in an actual high school, or senior high school as it is referred to in Nova Scotia. By then she didn’t have any experience with other people sexually because, you know, homeschooled, but she did have some experience exploring with herself.  

KATIE: I masturbated occasionally. But it wasn't like all it wasn't like an overwhelming urge, I guess. Was occasional.

NR: Do you mind if I asked you if that involved fingering or rubbing?

KATIE: Yeah, it would have been both. Yeah, mostly rubbing though. I think I've there's always been a little bit of discomfort associated with the whole thing, even though I never really realized why. Rubbing felt better and didn't have any kind of like twinges. Because it's kinda like when your nose is crack at a joint. If you catch the code lid and the wrong way, although it is a very thin film of skin like it's, it's not very thick, so any tugging on it can be really uncomfortable, especially if there's not a lot of moisture. So I definitely avoided it and felt uncomfortable.

NR: How did that feel?

KATIE:  You know, when you like when you pull a tampon out, and it's dry, amplified. Okay, so it's just like there's, there's this extra sensation that is just thoroughly unpleasant. It's hard. There's nothing else in the body that really, I can't think of any other way to describe it.

NR: When you fingered yourself did it kind of shift to the other wall like you described earlier?

KATIE: Kind of like it shifts, but it also pulls a little bit. So it pulls against like the top and the bottom of the canal. And it just, it's sometimes it's quite my nude especially like, if I'm well aroused, and everything is like going well, I don't notice as much, because there's enough lubrication, and there's enough like, the muscles are kind of relaxed. But especially if I was alone, if a fingernail caught, like, it would be quite uncomfortable. And so I definitely like I would avoid it when I could, and they definitely would just prefer to avoid it entirely.

NR: Katie’s parents were pretty open-minded when it came to sexuality, so much so that her mother started stocking their bathrooms with condoms when Katie started high school. 

KATIE: Around the time when a boy started calling me in the evenings because this was back in the landline days, and my mom just said, they're there. We don't count them. If you need them, please use them. That was it. So it was a, I'm sure they did count them. But they didn't want me to know.

NR: As nonjudgmental as Katie’s parents were, they still weren't huge fans of Katie’s first boyfriend. Her boyfriend and first sexual partner was a bit of an ass and unfaithful. 

KATIE: I was not actually his girlfriend, I was a hookup. And they could tell that it kind of bothered me. So they talked to me about that. But they weren't upset with the fact that I was, like, having sex with them. They were upset about the fact that he was not a nice person. So that was a valid concern.

NR: So, what was dating and sex like with him, you know him being your first partner?

KATIE:  I didn't like we didn't jump right into it. Because like, he was moderately experienced. I had obviously, there's my first I was none. So I mean, he was a bit of a rake. But he was good at making me feel comfortable. He wasn't pushy or anything. He was at least gentle but like, the progression, so I didn't feel like I was forced. And I didn't feel like I had to. I never noticed any real discomfort there. But you know, you're both kind of young. So he was a bit younger, so probably not as much down there to deal with so it didn't hurt. I didn't notice any major discomfort. I don't remember it being so uncomfortable that I was not interested in doing it again. Like it didn't cause any, like, avoidance. 

NR: Katie’s sex life after that was kind of boring as she puts it. She didn’t date that many people in high school and college and any person who she would end up dating she’d be with them long term, so there weren’t many hookups either. There was some discomfort during sex with some of these guys, but not always. 

KATIE: I remember like every now and then they'd accidentally hit it. I'd flinch. And then I just get like them to start again. But like slow, and if they go slow, then it naturally moves to one side. So as soon as they're on the left to the right, then they're not going to catch it anymore. Because it's pushed to the side. And they as long as they don't like pull all the way out to go back in. Then it's fine. I just say, Okay, I don't know, it just hurt. Let's try this. Let's try again, just slow for a second. I always thought that there was just like, resistance. I thought that maybe there was enough lubrication or something. And we just try again. And if it was, like if we added lubrication, or if anything else, just slowing down for a second worked, but then it would take care of it. 

NR: What did it feel like if you could describe it like that pain that you would feel if they pulled it?

KATIE: r and pressure at the same time. So it kind of feels like something's gonna rip. Because like I said, it's really thin. It's kinda like when you bite your cheek or your lip, and then it kind of like, every time you hit it, it hurts again. Because it's the same kind of like, very thin skin is inside your cheeks or something, but just like nothing else on the body that feels that hormone gets tug. It's temporary and it goes away faster, the more like aroused or lubricated everything is so like, if the muscles are relaxed, then it can kind of just go back. But if I'm feeling tense, or like, I'm not really ready for insertion anyway. It might take a bit longer to kind of feel like I'm ready for that to be attempted again.

NR: And did you ever? I don't know if noticed a pattern in your discomfort. Like maybe like, I'm just curious if like, maybe size had anything to do with your discomfort?

KATIE: I not really know. Um, I've never noticed any, like, extra pain, or like, with like, a larger, larger penis or, like, less with smaller, it's the pain really does just come from missing. Like, otherwise. It's been No, I don't know if anyone else with it has any issues like that. But I've never found any, like, correlation between that. What's mostly like just the care of like, making sure it's in the right. 

NR: There was some discomfort almost every time Katie had sex, but still it wasn’t enough for her to think that there was an issue. Katie assumed this pain was normal, and that all women experience it, though she didn’t understand why there were some women who enjoyed certain things that to her sounds painful as fuck. 

KATIE: I remember someone had told me about like…I don't know if you've seen them. It's even in one part. And then the other part goes over it so that you have like a vibrator on your clitoris and something inside. Like, yeah, someone was this, she told me that they got one they really liked it. And I saw it. And I didn't know what the set of but I was like that doesn't look comfortable. And they knew that there was something about like having sensation right in the center that did not feel good. And I couldn't understand why they sold this because it looks terrible. But everyone loves them apparently. 

NR: Shortly after college, Katie began dating the man who would ultimately become her husband. The two had gone to school together and even hooked up a bit their senior year, but it wasn’t until they reconnected after graduation that they started seeing each other seriously. They got married when she was 27. It was around that time that they had the fingering mishap, you know, when her husband twisted his fingers inside Katie a little too aggressively. In case you forgot, here’s Katie describing the experience again with an interesting analogy. 

KATIE: if you imagine someone putting like two chopsticks in your nose and then just like shoving them to the sides yeah so it's like one for each one in each canal and then he twisted his hand around and it really pulled top and bottom alternate like in opposite sides and it was a really weird corkscrew kind of feeling.

NR: Katie’s pap smear was coming up so she decided that this would be the perfect opportunity to find out what the hell was going on. She explained to the doctor what had happened and so the doctor used a speculum to see what Katie was talking about. 

KATIE: The septum moves to the side. So she didn't see anything. And I kept telling him like, there is something, I felt it, it's there. And eventually she put the speculum in and extended it and then slowly kind of turned it sideways and then pulled it out so that each side was pushing against like the lateral walls, not the top. And then as she pulled it out far enough, then the septum it's like an inch or so inside, I think is where it starts. So when she pulled the speculum out slowly, suddenly it popped into the middle. 

NR: And since then Katie has had to have two pap smears every time she goes in. 

KATIE: That's super. It's always really fun when I go to a new person and I have to say you have to do to go ahead.

NR: Because pap smears are typically performed by general practitioners in Nova Scotia, Katie had to be referred to an actual OBGYN.

KATIE: I went in and took about 30 seconds to say, yeah, you have to cervixes I've got an MRI. And then I got an MRI done and that confirmed double cervix. Fully separate vaginal canals or didelphic. We're not again, not sure. uterus issue. So yeah, yeah, fun medical journey.

NR: Katie broke down. She and her husband both wanted kids and so hearing about her uterus didelphys to them sounded like having a child together would get complicated. They weren’t wrong to be worried. Uterus didelphys can lead to some complications or abnormalities, like preterm labor or even miscarriages. There have also been rare cases of twins being born, one to each uterus.

KATIE: I went to an appointment with the doctor again to talk about the results of the MRI and she said there could be issues getting pregnant, we don't know. Just try and she said that usually, they make people wait six to eight months or something of trying just to try and then you know help if there needs to needs to be help at that point. But she said because we don't know. And because we do know there's this issue coming in three months if you haven't conceived, and my three-month appointment was two days after I found out I was pregnant. So that worked out well. 

NR: While Katie’s pregnancy was for the most part normal, it was the birth that was what worried her doctor. They made sure to keep monitoring her and discovered that the baby was developing in the uterus to her right. 

KATIE: My doctor had this concern that attempting birth could lead to the baby if any part of the baby hooked on to or the pressure could cause the septum to tear. And if it tore away, there was a real risk of hemorrhaging and stuff. And we also didn't know if I went in late if I went into labor, if the right cervix would dilate, or if they both try to dilate. So we just didn't she just didn't want to risk it. So she told me we're scheduling a C section. If you go into labor drive directly to the hospital, tell them to cut you open without me. 

NR: The c-section was a success. She started getting her periods again not that long after, which isn’t usually the case for women who’ve just given birth, especially if they’re breastfeeding, which Katie was. Strangely enough, though the periods weren’t as bad as they were before.

KATIE:   months for it to resume being painful. So pregnancy seemed to be the cure, which was very strange. One of the reasons I was like, Okay, I can be pregnant twice.

NR: In 2019, About three years after their daughter’s birth, Katie became pregnant with their second child. Like with her first pregnancy, she had to have a c-section which thankfully didn’t have any complications. Her period cramping also subsided even more after she gave birth to her son. Still, the excessive bleeding and discomfort during sex remained. 

KATIE: I'm like, lately we like lately, we use more like store-bought lubricant. It used to be that I just kind of waited until I was like there's more foreplay in arousal. But I've been, I've been breastfeeding my son since he was born. And the hormones just lead to like less moisture. So we use more now. But there was a period in between where my daughter was weaned. And when I wasn't pregnant with my second yet where I didn't find I needed this much. So I feel like I probably lubricate more than most, but I know that it's also probably kind of temporary. As long as I'm well aroused, then I don't notice any discomfort because there's less. Like if it's dry, there's more of a chance of rubbing and pulling and catching. Whereas if there's lots of lubrication, then it's just kind of a can glide and the septum can move to the side more easily. Yeah, I don't think I use any. I don't feel like I eat go through like an extraordinary amount.

NR: Katie knew deep down that lube, as magical as it can be, wasn’t going to solve all of her problems. Her Uterus didelphys was preventing her from doing things she wanted to experience with her children, like getting in a pool with them. 

KATIE: There's been I think two occasions where I absolutely had to go swimming because I had a two-year-old daughter who did not understand No mom won't take you in the pool. So I've had to specifically like used to angle them in sideways. And it's awful. And I don't wish that on anyone. I'm kind of shriveling up inside just thinking about that sensation. It's really unpleasant. So I just avoid swimming now. Like if I'm on period, I don't swim, because I just I can't deal with it. I at one point I bought this. I got a menstrual cup. I thought this will be great. I can't wait to not use tampons. This has to catch everything right. And of course, I put it in we go up one side and something we get around it because it was able to catch everything

NR: Going back to the pool experience. You said you used two tampons. I’m assuming they were both small tampons?

KATIE: Yeah, he was like the regular slim ones. And then I like angle one on each side. And then of course, like, I have to take them out. I would just remove them as soon as you're done swimming, possibly could like feel them pushing against each other. And like if they if one tugged a little bit, then it would move against the septum and it's just uncomfortable. So I take them as soon as we're done swimming. And of course they're not full. So then that's that dry, like sandpaper, e sensation that's, I think most women are aware of and really hate. 

NR: So, yeah enough was enough. Katie started weighing her options with a doctor which unfortunately there weren’t a lot of Nova Scotia.

KATIE: I had gone in for a consult at the local like Women's Hospital to ask about whether or not they can remove it. And it is possible. I'm still debating it and with COVID Unfortunately, there are no elective surgeries. So I can't just be like, could you schedule it? But I would like to have it removed at some point. I and I had wanted to donate if I because since it's update, it's probably not a possibility. But if it was a full day, Delphic like fully separate uterus, I had wanted to donate my uterus to someone who might have because I know there's some people who are born without them, or trans women who might want to have one, but unfortunately, the doctor said that's probably not a possibility, at least not in Nova Scotia. So that went down the drain. But I would like to have the septum clipped out because most of all, I just want to stop using pads because I find them uncomfortable and wasteful. I really want to be able to use a menstrual cup, but it's gonna be a while because of the pandemic. Just have to wait. Unfortunately.

NR: When when your doctors are that it's not possible to remove the uterus? does she mean not possible for you, it's just not possible ever?

KATIE: Well, in Nova Scotia, they don't do donations. So it wouldn't make much sense to do it here. Because there's a good likelihood that by the time it was transported, that might not be useful. mean, they could still do a hysterectomy. But I don't really want a full hysterectomy. I just wanted to have one side taken away. But if they're separate, then they're still connected. So that's not an option. It would have to be if they were fully didelphyis. And my doctors can't decide I had some doctors doing ultrasounds with my second pregnancy, who said that it looks update, some of them said they don't think they couldn't make up their minds. Some of them said I should be fine to go ahead with the vaginal birth. So I don't know for sure what I've got, unfortunately. So we don't know. But uh, I just wanted to set them to be gone. Because I feel like that would even if there's some minimal scarring on the vaginal canal, then at least there wouldn't be that like tearing painful pressure. And I feel like that would be a really nice thing to live without. 

NR: Treatments for Uterus didelphys is a little complicated. Because this is such a rare anomaly, surgery to unite a double uterus or to remove a vaginal wall are rarely done. People with this condition also sometimes don’t know they even have it in the first place, which is why it’s important to ask questions when you sense something not right. Also, and this is a given, we need doctors who listen to women’s pain. 

KATIE: So it's quite glad you reached out because I think that there's probably a lot of women out there who have no idea that what they're going through isn't actually a normal thing, or at least, is medically explained and can be helped. Because I mean, in this case, there's not a lot you can do about it, but the knowledge of it can at least let you mitigate some of the problems. So you know, you're not bleeding all over the place, or you're aware of what to do during sex so that it is more pleasurable and it isn't just, painful. Yeah. So yeah, I don't know. It's just, it's not up there. As far as I can tell. Especially from like, in my teens, it was not something that was even thought of, like no doctor was like, Oh, yeah, you're in a lot of pain. We'll look into it.”

NR: Katie, thank you so much for speaking with me.

KATIE: Oh, no problem. It was really, it was really fun.

NR: Thank you for listening to How I F*ck. If you like our podcast, give us a rating, leave us a review. Tell a friend. And please, subscribe if you haven’t already. Also, if you have a micropenis and would like to be interviewed for the show email us at hello@howifckpodcast.com or send us a dm on Instagram or Twitter. Our handles are at howickpodcast, that’s “How I F*ck,” without the “u” so “fck.” We also have a website, howifckpodcast.com, again without the “u.” There you can find all of our episodes as well as show notes, transcriptions, sources, and photos. How I F*ck is produced by me, Natalie Rivera. I’m also the host and creator. Ben Quiles is our audio engineer. Shyanne Lopez did copy and fact check. Original music by Miguel Gutierrez. You can find more of his music online under the artist name Magh. Gabriela Sanchez is our Social Media Manager and our Sponsorship Manager is Mouna Coulibaly. And special to Tessa Peterson for her help on this episode. Until next time.